In my conversations with current church leaders through Slingshot Group, or future church leaders through Leadership Pathway, I have found there are basically six essential factors that all of us are looking for when we are considering what is next. These are elements that can help draw us to that next position in ministry.

Place, Boss, Team, Church, Challenge, and Salary 

1. The Next Place. There are zip codes that are desirable places to be. There are towns and cities where family lives, or perhaps where our roots once were.

2. The Next Boss. We’ve read the cliché: People join organizations, but they leave their boss. This is so true. We are looking for a good connection, and someone’s leadership that will help us to thrive in a new position.  

3. The Next Team. Have you ever sat down with a group of people for a meeting or a meal and just felt right at home? We leave these encounters thinking things like I’d hang with that group again – they seem to really have a great vibe together. Or perhaps there is a lot of talent and shared experience within a team that we desire to join.

4. The Next Church (or organization). Sometimes we are looking for a vision we can really get behind, a shared philosophy or deep passion.  

5. The Next Challenge. Leaders love to solve issues. Great leaders run toward a problem, if they feel they are uniquely gifted or qualified to address it.

6. The Next Salary. God knows our context. He knows our needs, and sometimes they change within our family, or season of life.

Here’s the Real Question: Will you ever be able to get the job you want, in the place you desire, working for the boss you love, on the all-star team, at a great church you really resonate with, tackling the perfect challenge, and all for the right compensation?

The majority of the time, I would say no. There’s no perfect church. There’s no perfect candidate, and there’s no perfect scenario in your future.

I caution candidates to never move for just one reason. Just the dollars, or just the location, or just that perfect person you believe you want to work alongside. I have worked with some in those very scenarios, and when that one reason goes away, they are set up for a disappointing, and usually short, stay.

On the other hand, I have seen candidates find two, three, or four of these six factors to align, and they begin to use language like I believe God is calling us to…

So, take a look at the six elements for a place that you may be going to next, and prioritize them. What is most important to you, and/or your family for this next season of life? Prayerfully consider these before getting onsite with a potential next employer. It may actually help you see more clearly through all of the factors that go in to making the decision of where you may be going next.

When Your Senior Pastor Leaves        (and it's your boss)

When Your Senior Pastor Leaves (and it's your boss)

I’ve read a lot in recent months about succession planning of senior pastors. I won’t restate the stats here of how many Boomer pastors will be retiring since I know you’ve read the same blogs that I have.

There’ve also been some good books written on the topic which is great.  There also appears to be more than just one example of an older church that has gone through this successfully. Five years ago, I think I heard of the one good example over and over. These days I’m hearing more. This is encouraging.

But I’m yet to read anything (I think?) on what to do if you find yourself as a young leader downline on the staff of a church that just announced a well planned one to three-year succession plan (and sometimes longer).

Perhaps one of the reasons you began on that staff was because it was a stable place to learn, grow, and advance in leadership and influence. You wanted to learn from this long term leader who is now talking about an exit. Suddenly, this dynamic church begins to look inward more than out for it’s mission, it’s getting weird, everything is difficult, and you are hearing things like “this will be a long three years…”

Three years may seem like a long weekend to those looking forward to retirement, but three years is more than 10% of your entire life thus far!

I never lived this, so I asked a long-time friend (and former intern I might add) what three things he’d say to young leaders on these staffs. His name is Curtis. He’s an exec leader at a great church, he’s a good singer, karaoke-host, story teller, drummer/percussionist, funny comedian, great husband, and awesome dad with an impressive beard.

He’s also an expert on what to do when this happens because he’s lived it not just once, but now twice.

Here in his own words are his answer to the question what three things would you say to a young staff leader whose Senior Pastor just announced a long succession plan?

- Be patient…You will find that it is easy to spend many days living in the “what ifs?” Embrace 'the waiting' and don’t be too quick to jump ship for the next seemingly comfortable thing..seasons are important, how things are now will not be how things are down the road. 

- Keep an open mind to the transition that happens in your own world… if you resign to the idea that you're not changing what you do/how you work… then you’ll be planning your own exit. You will be changed through this! You will change how you work and lead! Transition is for everyone not just the Senior Leader.

- Help your church and other team members goodbye well to your pastor. You must do this and your church must do this. You can be a key here! All the new that is coming will be the tidal wave of change. If you and your team are not careful, you’ll shift focus there too soon. Don’t forget to honor them and honor them well for what they’ve done.

Remember…God knows your address. He knew this was gonna happen before you took that ministry role. Perhaps you have a unique role to play. Perhaps you’re there simply to learn, good and bad, about one of the key times in a church’ life. Perhaps you’re there to help other younger, and even newer, staffers through the transition.

Three Answers for Residency

Three Answers for Residency

Senior and Executive Pastors tend to say one of three things when the topic of residency comes up:

1.) “We tried that once. It worked for a season, but then went in to decline. One of our staff was tasked to do the recruiting and it overwhelmed them. We didn’t find good candidates.”
You need to fish in different ponds. Did you know Leadership Pathway can do a nationwide residency search for about as cheaply as you can send a couple of staff on a Seminary tour over one weekend? You believe you have a good program, but you can’t find good candidates…we can help with that!

#2.) “My staff tells me it's too much work. They’re not sure what to do."
A full engagement with Leadership Pathway gives you access to their Guidebook. This coaching material is designed to walk with your staff and their resident over the coming two years. It provides monthly reading suggestions, and coaching helps to have developmental conversations

3.) “We already have a killer internship program.”
We’d simply ask, have the last few interns gone on to have fruitful ministry careers? If you, or another dynamic church, have hired them on to a ministry all means just keep doing what you’re doing! Normally it’s here that we ask if we can steal what you have to use in our program!

 If the first two sound a little familiar, we'd love to talk more with you at Leadership Pathway.



There are those among us who seem to just be born with a high level of grit. They don’t stop until the task is done. They could be a number crunching CFO, a dedicated employee, an artist at a canvas, or a leader who just won’t give up no matter what.

Let’s set those amazing folks aside for a moment…

There are others of us who have ideas and think of ourselves as entrepreneurial. We love to start things and many times will walk away before it’s finished. In the church world we tend to think of these people as higher caliber leaders, but we aren’t. We just have more books (that we read the summaries of…), and most of the like-minded people are the ones who speak at conferences. They make us feel better about ourselves.

We’re the starters. We’re the quitters.

We are the First In and First Out.

I have a theory that is not backed by data anywhere because I don’t have the money, nor the grit, to study it. I just think that we’re the ones who quit too soon. We didn’t like middle school and we couldn’t wait to get to high school. Then we hated high school. We would have quit both if our mom would have let us. We wanted to play the drums, but it didn’t come naturally so we gave up after five lessons. We got to college… yeah, we hated that too and would have quit if we weren’t on scholarship and investing large sums of money.

There are hundreds (dozens?) of us nationally that just took a ministry job at a local church after finishing our education. For the first time ever no one is going to make us stay after it.  The clock is ticking and a whole bunch of us flame out before year three. We launched that ministry, we started that thing, we even started those things that had nothing to do with our job description, we got people excited…and then…the newness wore off.

For those of us who took the only job we could get, we find ourselves in a dangerous spot. This is really no different how we felt back in middle school or taking viola lessons. This is work. This takes grit. We quit, and we say that God has called us to something else. Or our shallow attitude gets the best of us and we get fired for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time, or for not understanding how to do the right thing at the right time.

Some of us were fortunate enough to have some folks around us who wouldn’t let us quit by year three. This is the fundamental idea behind Leadership Pathway. When we say “stick it out for three years” to a 23-year-old they may wonder if we realize that we’re talking about more than 10% of their entire life. It sounds eternal. Later in life, we have the perspective that three years sounds more like a long weekend.

For those of us who've been down this path and lived to tell about it, it's now our turn to be First In with those coming behind us, and help them to not be the First Out.


"EEK! My Kid is Thinking About Ministry" 4 Things to Consider

"EEK! My Kid is Thinking About Ministry" 4 Things to Consider

In a previous post, I set up this conversation that I tend to have a lot this time of year with parents of high school juniors and seniors.  Here’s the first of four things that I tend to say over and over:


There are countless books written about the topic of vision—vision for the country, world peace, a business, or a church. Let me ask, what’s your kid’s personal vision for himself or herself?

The best vision is as specific and measurable as possible. Everyone struggles with this question for their life. Most 18 – 25-year-olds struggle even more so. Most of them I talk to are impressive, and they tend to first say, “Whatever God wants.”  This should be the first answer, and I applaud it, but to get them to think more deeply, I tend to ask it this way: “If I jumped in a time traveling DeLorean and went out five years, found  a photo you took and brought it back with you, what would be in the picture?” 

I then follow up with simple questions like, Are you in a city or rural setting? Are you employed? Where? Are you married, or are you waking up alone? You are getting in a car and driving to a location at 8.30 A.M. on a Monday—is it an office? If so, to do what?

I would encourage you to have this conversation as early as possible (10th grade maybe) and re-visit it often. I remember doing the Paterson Process Thinking Wavelengths with both of my kids at this age. They are now in their mid-twenties, and we have revisited this conversation often.

So, here’s the deal…unless you are sitting on piles of cash, you may not want to haul off and finance your (or your kids’) next two decades on an education built on a foggy vision.

What lifts the cloud of vision? It is action built on self-awareness, not prayer alone, not reading alone, not studying alone but action. If your student is not actively volunteering at a local church but is voicing that he or she wants to pursue vocational ministry someday, then I’d go as far to say that this vision is not a vision at all.

Great vision is followed by a clear mission, supported by strategy, fueled by plans, and measured by metrics.  This is true of your student’s life, as well.

I suppose that if your teen was thinking about becoming a veterinarian, you’d say, “You know, honey, you should think about either getting a part-time job with a vet or just volunteer with our vet to see if you’d like it.”  My son worked a part-time job as an intern during his high school years with a single A baseball team. He’s now in his 4th season full time in baseball, moving up the ladder in professional operations.

Here’s a wrong response to a high school student who wants to go into ministry:

“Well you pray about it, and whatever the Lord wants, He will direct you.”  Don’t get take this the wrong way, you should pray about it, and the Lord will direct them. But his must be followed by action.

I’d urge you instead to encourage her to jump in, do something, volunteer, get out of high school a few hours early, and spend time in the kid’s pastor’s office. Who knows? Maybe she’ll be asked to serve as an intern there.

I’ve encountered 23-year-old students with a master’s degree from a seminary and thousands of dollars of school debt yet still unclear as ever about their vision. Now they are caught somewhere between a lack of readiness and in need of a job.

This is why we founded Leadership Pathway. We need to help fewer arrive at this point on their journeys.

Now, am I saying, your Generation Z-er, cannot move forward until they have their life fully planned? No, of course not. But, should you calibrate the investment of time, money, and distance accordingly? Yes.

Speaking of investment, the next post will cover that it doesn’t really matter which path students choose in college.

"OMG! My Kid Is Thinking about Ministry!" 4 Things to Consider...

"OMG! My Kid Is Thinking about Ministry!" 4 Things to Consider...

I’m of the age now that some of my childhood friends are reaching out about their teenage kids. While they have a thousand voices to get expert advice on every topic a parent will face, I tend to get the question about ministry-specific-preparedness.

It goes something like: My daughter went forward last summer at a conference and said she wants to be a youth pastor. She’s a senior. What should she do in terms of education? Or My son has been volunteering with the student ministry guy at our church, and now says he wants to be like him…who should we do?


First of all…if your kid is awesome, shows early signs of leadership, is an instigator, troublemaker, influencer, and could go do anything with their life…CONGRATS! Yes, that’s who we need in ministry, let’s do this!

I tend to blog the conversations I have over and over. And this is one of those conversations. I know parents have an ocean of information they are digging through with their high school students. I know this because we’ve had two successfully navigate high school, college, and real-world #adulting on their own, and we’ve lived to tell about it.

Here are five things (and there are probably 137) to keep in mind if your high school kid really is wanting to prepare for ministry. By “ministry” I mean fully employed vocationally at a local church someday. I don’t mean: being light in the dark, business as mission, blooming where you are planted, or even non-profit leadership. I’m talking about being compensated someday to be on staff at a local church in a role other than Senior Pastor. 

I tend to say these four things over and over:

1. Start with the end in mind.
Which is the goal: diploma or employment at a local church? There’s a huge difference. (If the goal is diploma, you don’t need to read the rest of this…)

2. The college choice means less than you think.
Christian College, State University, Seminary, or other…or even none?

3. How they use these next four years means everything.
We need wise people in ministry like never before (and it helps if they’re smart, too!)

4. They must do 2 intense years at a dynamic, growing, reach-oriented church.
The final, most important, ingredient if your answer to #1 is employment.

Now, before you shoot me an email about how there are more important things than these five (like loving Jesus, reading the Bible, character, serving the least of these and 47 other things) I say to you I totally agree. I’m simply speaking into the topics that land at my feet. There are way smarter people than I to help your student navigate those other 47 things.

My life mission is to help those who want to do this go out and do this with their life. I’m always trying to find the best/next steps for those who want to pursue it. One path does not fit all, but there are patterns and best practices and steps that will greatly enhance ones' potential to navigate successfully vs. being taken out early on the path.

Over the next few posts, I’ll blow out each of these topics. In the next post, we’ll discover how students need at least to try to start with the end in mind.


Four Things I've Learned Through the Discipline of Unplugging

Four Things I've Learned Through the Discipline of Unplugging

I was challenged by my pastor a couple of months ago about giving. He said, “10 percent isn’t giving. 10 percent is returning…giving actually begins with the 11th percent.”   I thought that was awesome. While I feel like we’re good on the money stuff, I know that I’m not good on the topic of time.

If you consider yourself a high achiever, and you love getting stuff done, then I’m assuming, like me, you may struggle with turning it all off. If you lead anything, if you’re in sales, if you’re a pastor, self-employed, working from home or on the road this becomes infinitely more difficult.

I live in Denver. I have East Coast clients that start at 5a my time. I have West Coast friends that work well in to what I’d call quitting time. I work with many who work Saturdays.

I love what I do…too much most of the time. I love being on teams that just get it done and I’ve said things like “every email and voice mail returned by 5p” to those I lead. But then…in this time zone is that 3pm? Is it 7pm? It’s both, actually.

So, for the past several weeks I’ve been choosing one day a week to completely unplug. No laptop and no phone. For many of you right now you can click away…no need to finish reading. But for me, and many like me, this is a big deal.

I’ve heard countless sermons and opinions on the issue of taking a Sabbath Day. That’s not really what this post is about. It’s really about two ideas:

1. Returning to God a portion of what is already His in the first place. Similar to that message on money that I had heard…this is not my life.

2. I don’t need to do this. I’m not going through this discipline because I’m stressed, angry, or out of balance. I’m doing this because it is forcing my mind heavenward every time I have a thought about email, social media, or if that client has texted me yet. This feels like hundreds of times a day when I’m without my devices. (By the way…do you also feel your phone vibrate even when it’s not in your pocket?

What I’ve discovered:

1. The sun still rises and sets if I’m not plugged in. (amazing...I know)
2. ONCE I missed a critical text from a client, and I easily recovered the following day.
3. Most of the time the unreturned stuff takes care of itself.
4. I’m beginning to enjoy it…more reading, more shooting hoops, more walks, and more naps.

Now, I’m not saying this is for everyone. I’m not saying you actually should do this. I would say at the very least you’d best run it by your boss / team to make sure you aren’t letting people down.  (BTW I also have an exec who knows how to find me should something really bad happen…so far…it hasn’t.)

I am saying that if you consider yourself high-achieving and find fulfillment in how much you get done that it might be great to try and practice: The Spiritual Discipline of Unplugging.

Three Great Ways to Learn About You (and be ready for that interview)

Three Great Ways to Learn About You (and be ready for that interview)

Self-Awareness is key when taking your first or next step in ministry.  Most of the time when a ministry role is cut short (re: “fired” or “quit”) due to team fit it potentially is due from a lack of self-awareness on the part of the candidate.  There are multiple ways to go about this, but I find these are the three or four best ways when speaking with church leaders..

Take this opportunity to learn about you in the following ways:

STEP ONE:  Take the following 3 tests

FIND IT:  On Amazon for less than $20.00 and a quick download you can identify your top strengths and what this means in terms of your relatability to others. Want to go deeper with Strength Finders email Stef Row here, she is a certified Strength Finders coach with a high get it factor of church leadership.

 Typically, those who understand their Strengths will talk in terms of their “top five.”

FIND IT: Just google search “Free DISC Assessments” and you’ll have a variety. Learn your combination of Dominance, Influence, Steadiness, Conscientiousness. Cost should be free on this one, unless you’d like to pay for a deeper assessment.  There are also coaches available for a deeper dive in DISC as well.

Typically, those who understand their DISC will speak in terms such as “I’m a high D” or “I’m a S with a little bit of C.”

FIND IT: you can find a free personality test here.

Typically, those who understand their personality type will talk in letters “I’m an ISTJ.”’

FIND IT: I can take you through this in under an hour. Or find someone who is a certified Strat Ops supervisor. Tom Paterson developed the Paterson process of Strat Ops planning.  A core function of this training is the mapping of teams.  This test centers on how you naturally are wired to solve problems. 

STEP TWO:  Focus the picture

These three tests should lead you to be able to understand your strengths and give you a framework to talk about yourself. Those who’ve gone through these tests, and are used to talking about it, may say something like “I’m an Activator, Maximizer, & Strategist (Strength Finder) who is a High D/I with little S/C (DISC) and I’m a 7/8 on the Wavelengths.”

You should expect to have to read over your results a few times to get clear and own it. What is surprising? What is affirming?

STEP THREE:  Get perspective

Once you have the picture in focus do some perspective work. How have you seen this play out in your life in good and bad ways? Get an older trusted friend/mentor who knows you well and ask them how they’ve seen this in your behaviors. Remind them to be brutally honest.

Knowing YOU is the strongest skill to take on your next step.

Questions I get Asked

Questions I get Asked

Through my work with both and, I get asked many questions over and over about ministry candidates.

After the character/walk with Christ questions, there are a few that seem to make the top of the list. The questions are similar for a 21 year-old resident as they are a 32 year-old ministry leader. If you are thinking about taking your next step in ministry in 2018, ask yourself these. What are your answers? Does your resume, the stories you tell, and your current supervisor see your track record similarly?

// What have they built/started?
// What have they led?
// What was the shape of the ministry they inherited and how did they leave it?
// Do they hustle, have passion? Do they have drive?
// Are they coachable/teachable?
// Do they understand themselves with tools like the enneagram, DISC, Strength Finders, or Thinking Wavelengths?
// Do people follow / do they show signs of being an influencer?
// Do people want to hang out with them?
// Will they engage in conflict or are they a peacemaker? Can they resolve the conflict they have gotten in to?
// Can they think strategically about complex situations and systems?

The end of a calendar year is a great time to get a truth-telling friend or co-worker and do some self-evaluation. Even if you are staying put in 2018, a few hours of this is good for your own development.

A Lead Pastor's Take on Residency

A Lead Pastor's Take on Residency

Discovery Christian Church in Broomfield, Colorado (Denver) is several years into building a residency program.  Recently, I *sat down with the Lead Pastor of Discovery, Steve Cuss, to talk about the unique view a senior pastor brings to such an endeavor.  Discovery averages about 900 people on a typical week and is about fourteen-years-old.

Can we begin with an overview of where Discovery has been in terms of residency? We started residency in 2015 with one resident from Nebraska Christian College in Omaha. She began mid-year in January in our Worship Arts Department, and we added a second resident that summer onto our Children’s team. In 2016, we expanded by adding residents to our Youth and Discipleship departments. Currently, we have a total of 5 residents, and there is always an overlap between who is new and who is doing a second year. I can’t really keep up with it, and that’s why I’m glad we have Renae Loring, who serves as our Pastor of Global Ministries and Leadership Development.

You’ve mentioned that you view Discovery as a teaching church. What do you mean by that?Yeah, we see ourselves as a development church. I came to Christ as a teenager from a complete blank slate—an unchurched home. When I went to a Bible College, I got a 22% on my Bible Entrance Exam! I couldn’t put Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the correct order, for example. But, I did have a youth pastor that very quickly put us on the front lines of ministry; we had high ownership of the church service as teenagers. I’m sure we were pretty bad at it, but we really believed the weight of the church was on our shoulders.

Almost three decades later, I can draw a straight line from that leadership development to my skills today. So just like my youth pastor did for me, I want to make sure we don’t set the bar of excellence too high so that a residency cannot be involved. In order to be a teaching church you have to ensure they have the opportunity.

So, this model is much like a teaching hospital, right? For example, one doctor doesn’t walk into the room alone; rather, there’s a line of younger people in lab coats learning alongside him.Yes! The other added bonus of being a development culture is how well it develops our current leaders. Leaders don’t grow if they are not developing people, so I see two sides to the development coin.

What do you hope are the outputs? What are your expectations upon a student completing this program? I guess we have a few goals. One is to add to what they learn in college. Some pastors are quick to say things like, “I wish they taught me ____ in college,” but honestly, that has never made sense to me as there are some skills and experiences that can only be learned in the trenches of ministry.

I hope our residents learn to fail well, to build a resilience for what is a very tough role, to learn to engage with actual unchurched people, to understand themselves better, like what makes them tick or what ticks them off—just some base level self-awareness, and to learn some significant skill and craft in the process.

What does that look like? Well, yesterday, I took two of my residents to a lunch with a local Muslim imam and an urban African-American pastor to talk about racial injustice and systemic poverty. I’m constantly asking people I schedule meetings with, “Can I bring my residents along?” The week before we were teaching those same residents how to walk onto a stage after a worship song and lead what is next.

So, I expect our residents to come away with a broad range of skills for ministry. Most of all, I expect our residents to be brave and to continually step significantly out of their comfort zones and depend on God in their ministry.

From where does your motivation to do this come? After college, I served as a hospital chaplain for a year and did 4 units of “Clinical Pastoral Education.” The basic premise is to put a ministry student in a trauma-filled environment for a year in order for him or her to learn who he or she really is. I discovered a great deal about myself and how I perceive the world—what I am afraid of, etc. I come from a tradition that didn’t know what to do with a shadow or dark side. This experience really opened my eyes to the power of God which is available when I offer him my dark side, temptations, fear, etc. This experience motivates me to broaden our students’ experiences in becoming more self-aware.

It takes a commitment to fail positively, especially publicly (on stage, etc.) for residents. How have you determined where the line is for acceptability? Oh man, this one is very difficult. It helps that we have communicated to our congregation that “we hold excellence and development in tension,” and also that “everyone of us is in development.” I am better at preaching than our residents partly because of gifting, but mainly because I’ve done it more often. My first years at Discovery I had some really cringe-worthy sermons. Ha! So, will we have some uncomfortable moments from our residents? Yes. But, someone has to let them do this in a safe environment.

Surely you follow these “fails” with evaluation and coaching, right? Yes. I don’t think we have a handle yet on the “acceptable line,” but I look for courage and vulnerability. If a resident is courageous, willing to put himself or herself out there and give it everything, I’ll generally go to bat for them every time. If the resident is moving toward comfort, I’ll turn the heat up a good bit instead.

If a church your size is considering residency, what would you say to their senior pastor? Well, first I’d say, don’t do it to get cheap labor. You will have to truly invest in people, not extract from people.

Secondly, I’d say that you need residents to keep you young and open to new thoughts. Be open to their ideas that they share in meetings and in other settings. The energy our residents bring is fantastic!

Thirdly, if you want to grow as a leader, bring on a resident. If one of your key leaders needs to grow, make him lead a resident.

What are the ingredients required that go into making a successful residency? Logistically, you need money, housing arrangements, and a firm commitment from your staff to develop students. Then, you need a bit of time to figure it out. Assess your situation and realize what does your team and church intuitively do that is worth passing on, and then turn that into some sort of training path. It does not have to be formal, but it must be intentional.

For us, it is a 9-month class that meets every other week for 2 hours, and also a monthly lunch and a monthly meeting on spiritual health. That’s a purposeful commitment that is real. Lots of man-hours and personnel dollars go into this.

It helps a great deal, too, if you enjoy your residents’ company. I always look forward to time spent with my two residents; they are both outstanding, quality people.

 For a church your size to have a potentially deep bench seems like an added blessing to the process, yes? Yes! When I hire from within, I get excellent people who inherently get the culture but don’t have outside training. When I bring someone from outside, I get great fresh perspective and high adaptability, but cultural fit challenges.

With a resident, I get both.

 To learn more about Discovery’s residency program email Renae Loring, Director of Leadership Development.


*By this, I mean I emailed him questions, and he answered them…but you already knew that.

Six Comments to the College/Seminary Grad Looking for a Ministry Role

Six Comments to the College/Seminary Grad Looking for a Ministry Role

In my work with both Slingshot and Leadership Pathway I get to talk to college seniors and seminary grads a lot. Here are six comments I tend to talk about over and over.

// YOU ARE NEEDED. Church leaders at advancing churches (those where the Gospel is being advanced - they’re not just getting bigger in size) They are looking for a version of you 6 years from now. Seems like every day I hear a version of,  “We are looking for someone who is 29-32 with 6 or 7 years of experience having built a ministry and led some stuff…”

This could be you someday!

// YOU NEED A VISION for what your contribution might be in the Kingdom in six or seven years. What do you guess that your life will look like once you get to the point where you are the rare leader who is twenty nine with six or seven years of experience?

// HOW CAN YOU GET THERE FROM HERE? Let’s work backward from your vision of you at age 29 or 30. My sense is you are going to do something out of the ordinary the next couple of years.

// YOUR BEST/NEXT STEP is a two-year experience on staff at a church that is advancing.  

No matter the denomination, theological viewpoint, or area of the country, you need to be serving in and around the type of ministry that interests you. You need to be barely in over your head, but within arms-reach of a gifted leader who is willing to coach you and/or has a track record of developing leaders. I don’t mean a gap-year program where you are figuring out what you want to do. I mean a developmental plan to land you full time in ministry when your two years is up.

// AT THE END OF THOSE TWO YEARS you will be hirable and potentially will be employed by that same church.  It’s vital to choose wisely where you’d want to do this two-year experience. More than likely, this church won’t let you walk if they can avoid it. You are one of them; they’ve already deeply invested in you. 

// SPEND 4-5 YEARS in full-time ministry.  So, whether you stay at the church where you did your residency, or you choose to move on with a great reference from people who wish you weren’t leaving them, it is your decision. At this point you are approximately 6 years in. You have become the rare leader who is very difficult to find.

There are not many, and The Kingdom needs you to do this.

I really hope you could give God a  couple of decades of servant leadership in the local church. That seems like stewarding back the gift of the amazing education, mentoring, prayer, coaching, and counseling that you’ve received from the Kingdom.  We’re all in this. We’re all rooting for you.

You may begin this as an undergraduate, online college student, post-seminary graduate, or one with no education at all. I’m less and less confident that it matters. What does matter is that you submit to someone who can develop leaders, and who wants to see you become this for the Kingdom. And give it two years.

My experience has been that anyone who wants to do this with his or her life is going to have opportunities if he/she walks this road. There are thousands of churches looking right now for a version of you six years from now.  They could be big, small, urban, rural, plants, mega-churches, progressive, stuck, reformed, charismatic, uptight—but if they are advancing…they are looking for you.

From what we read, there are about 20,000 churches that are advancing amongst the other quarter million that are in decline.  I sure hope you choose to give a couple decades to one that is advancing.  That’s where we need the best leaders we can find in the Kingdom.

I’ve also seen many allow student debt, life experiences, hardheadedness, parental pressure, zip code, and poor advice from those that don’t fully understand this scenario drive potential church leaders toward a different path. These are the ones who leak out of the pipeline on their way to becoming a church leader with 6 to 7 years of experience.

They went to the wrong place and quit, or they got fired, hate the church, and think it’s useless. I have friends like this, and I’ll bet you already do, as well. Just last week a pastor told me he was the only one left from his class of 60+ in 2005. No wonder seasoned leaders are as rare as an endangered species.

Might your phone ring in the next 37 seconds with the perfect God-ordained opportunity? Yes. And might he choose to do all sorts of things to guide your path in a miraculous way?  Yes. From where I sit that is exactly what He’s doing, because the journey of my last 25 years around this stuff is a miracle, and I’d love to help in any way I can..

If this resonates with you,  hit our website and complete the application, and let’s see where it takes us together.





Six Reasons Church Creatives Should go see Mayer's "The Search for Everything" Tour

Six Reasons Church Creatives Should go see Mayer's "The Search for Everything" Tour

John Mayer is the second-best worship leader I’ve ever seen.  Here are six reasons every worship leader at a reach-oriented church should get a ticket and go see this current tour, “The Search for Everything.” Take a critical eye, take your senior pastor, and make some notes.

1. Age. Seems like every church is trying to do a weekend service that connects with Millennials as well as sixty-year-olds. Here’s an artist that actually achieves it.  All ages are at “The Search for Everything,” and they all have their hands in the air swayin’ to the music.

2. Programming. It’s an old-fashioned term that’s rarely used on a church staff anymore, but it’s also a lost art in many churches. This show is hung on themes (quite literally projected in white on black so all of us could keep up). The pacing of the concert drew us in and took us on a journey. There were moments of anticipation, acceleration, and then descent. There was just enough talking to build rapport. A great worship leader knows that not everyone is with you at the downbeat. This will take some work.

3. Craft. It’s about the guitar and an all-star band. As guru Stan Endicott would say, these are the types of people who’ve spent four hours a day for decades working on what they love, and it shows.  It’s excellence first, and it is excellence that anyone can appreciate.  You don’t have to be a musician to understand what’s going on, and that’s a key learning for us all.

4. Production. You’ll see some very creative uses of IMAG and imagery in story-telling. It took me a moment to get my brain around what they were doing creatively, but the video still served the purpose of video in a large venue (we could see & we were drawn in). It was loud, it was exciting, the lighting reflected the very character of the One who made it. It was tasteful, artistic, and it could have been way more, but there was no need. It served each moment.

5. Engagement. When John says, “sing it with me” there’s no doubt from the front row to the top of the third balcony everyone is all in with lines from familiar songs. Great artists know how to build the type of rapport that it’s about “us” and then it becomes about something different altogether.

6. Authenticity. Who doesn’t love an artist that is so in the moment that tears come down his face as he plays his guitar? Where does that passion come from and how is that sustained night after night? I’m not sure, but that’s the place where sideman Isaac Sharkey lived in the moment. He stayed humbly in the shadows until it was time.  These artists loved what they did, they did it well, and it showed.

We will never have the built-in motivation that an A-list artist gets in an arena.  There’s nothing like $200.00 tickets, planning for weeks, baby sitters scheduled days in advance, and getting to your seat early tend to motivate humans to lean in. But we have something that The Search for Everything will never have. We have the King of the Universe to make famous, and the highest of motivations from which to draw.



Where Are the 29 Year Olds? (In one of 3 places)

Where Are the 29 Year Olds? (In one of 3 places)

Over the last eleven years I’ve been in a church leadership conversation that sounds something like, “We’re looking for someone who is probably 29 – 32 years of age, and has built a ministry and ready to take their next step. Know anyone like that?”

No matter the role in a church, this seems to be the center of the target when it comes to looking outside for the next team member. When churches have depleted their internal pipelines, and connections, it’s time to go out and hunt.

I was asked just this week: Where are the 29 year olds who could join our church staff?

From my first-hand accounts, they are in one of three places:

1. Locked Down. They are doing great in their ministry role. They are challenged, they are moving “up” organizationally, and have a clear path ahead of them for the next several years. They’re the Worship Pastor who might be an executive pastor someday.  They were the  middle school, and now high school, pastor who desires to be a teaching pastor someday.  They were the 4th/5th grade director, now they’re over all elementary and they can see the day when they could become a Family Ministry Pastor.

You get the idea.

2. They quit 6 years ago.  Unfortunately, this 29 year old took the wrong path at age 23. I’ve written before here on four dangerous paths to begin. Early in ministry they had limited exposure, and therefore, limited understanding, of what the future could be. I’m not talking about size of church, or pay scale. I’m talking about ministry effectiveness. They took the role they could find. They listened to a voice they shouldn’t have. They wake up a year in and they began to thnk if this is ministry I’m not doing it…

I pitch vision every day for those beginning in ministry to start in a place that is obsessed with advancing the Kingdom. These are the types of places that shape a future vision.

We expect young leaders to have a vision for their ministry. How about those of us who are older start having vision for what the young leader could be someday, too?

I’m convinced those that get through the first three years of ministry have the emotional intelligence, and pain tolerance, to do this the next fifteen or twenty years. Some will do this for a lifetime. This is what the Kingdom is crying out for…a leader with just a little experience, to go to the next level.

A friend recently said, “The wrong time for a new mom to evaluate her parenting skills is in the first weeks after delivering her first child.” The same is true in ministry. We must coach young leaders through these early years. 

We are losing too many this way, and this is on those of us who are twenty years ahead of them.

3. They were never there in the first place.  The local church needs leaders who could have done anything with their one and only life. The college Junior & Senior awakening to a call of ministry has a couple of options before them:  1.) Seminary or 2.) Para-church.

Number one leaves them deeper in debt than they already are, and some may argue too much of this too early will only make them that much more irrelevant to their peers. Option number two puts them on a path that will take them someplace other than your church staff.

We need another path for them.  This path can be you and your church.

I would challenge that we must create option #1 above on your team. We have to find those with the most potential, and begin them early on your team in residency. Lay out a developmental path that will help fill in their gaps so they can continue to grow and raise their lid of knowledge, heart, and skill.

Someone on your team must champion this. They have to take on the role of coach, and not just supervisor. Young leaders need both. Having a vision for the youngest on the team, with the most potential, will help answer your question in a few years: where are the 29 year olds? They will be right there with you.

I Was 22 Once...

I Was 22 Once...

I was reminded today that I was age 21 - 28 once.
I was in Church leadership. 
I was sitting at the exec table (although we didn't call it that at the time).
I was making all sorts of decisions about the direction and the future.
I was within arms reach of older and wiser leaders who didn't let me die.

So everybody knocks millennials, but it makes me wonder do we have a shortage of millennial leaders or do we have a shortage of older and wiser ones allowing them to sit at the table?

Probably both.



The Power of a Hand Written Note

The Power of a Hand Written Note

Someone told me early in ministry to never forget to say thank you in a meaningful way to volunteers who served with me.  It was a few years later, with the advent of AOL (remember those days?), that I would begin to learn the power of the hand-written note as electronic communication began to rule.

Bob led our vocal team at the time, and he was the best at writing detailed and personal letters to all who sang during our weekend services. This was a lot of work, and one that bore much fruit. 

While I have not taken my letter writing to Bob-levels I did take up the tasks of trying to write each person a thank you. I would soon pass this on as a “must-do” to other team members.

Over the years, I’ve walked in to offices, cubicles, and kitchens of those I’ve written. Many times, I would see the note from me pinned up, or held in place with a magnet.  I think these continue to resonate to this day for a few reasons:

-       Everyone loves to be thanked. No matter how large or small the task.

-       Snail mail worth opening and keeping is rare. For several years, we have checked the mail (down the street) maybe once per week.  99% goes in the garbage. When we get a note that is hand written it is a treat and a keeper.

-       A personal note builds community. It is way more than a text, email, or social media message. It says I wanted you to know that this act of kindness meant something more to me

If you struggle to write (and don’t we all) here are some tips you may find helpful:

-       Schedule it in your calendar. Like all things that are important you must make this a priority. If you lead a large team you aren’t going to get all them a note every week, but how many would you need to write to get to all of them in a month?

-       Buy a nice pen. A development consultant told me this once and I believe it. It doesn’t have to be an expensive Mont Blanc, but find a pen that you like. It will make the experience better.

-       Keep a list.  Try to rotate through your long list of volunteers, donors, or team members. This way you aren’t writing the “favorites” over and over, and everyone gets to experience this blessing.

-       Pray for this individual while you are writing them.

My wife and I are both privileged to be engaged in ministries around many amazing people. We both lead some volunteers (although she leads many many more than I do these days). We both continue to see the power of a hand-written note in expressing thanks and building teams. 

We also love receiving them because we know the intentionality that it takes to write them.




If blogs, conferences, books, and tweets were the answer to leadership development I think we’d be in good shape.  What’s made the difference in my personal life and development over the years is coaching. It takes a “real person” sitting across the table, on the phone, or looking through a video camera from across the country, reminding me of what I said I was going to do, and asking me how it’s going.

It’s with that in mind that Leadership Pathway offers a second year of Coaching Huddles designed especially for those who’ve been in ministry less than three years. The emphasis of these gatherings focus on how to begin the habits and actions to be a life-long learner. They are limited to ten or fewer, and are delivered over zoom video conferencing.

Click below to get more information. Space is limited we kick off again in July.


Nobody Gets There on their Own

Nobody Gets There on their Own

Someone sent me this picture last week. I think this is about 1987. That's my home preacher, Wayne B Smith, in the center front. I sat on the aisle, house right, row 5 for most of my life up to age 18 and was deeply affected by watching hundreds (or was it thousands?) respond to the Gospel.

To the left of Wayne is my big brother. He was the first guy dumb enough to sign me up to be "staff" at his Kids Min Day Camp when he was a kids pastor.I was also inspired by his work ethic, and "can-do" mentality. This typically meant he just didn't go to bed when his ministry had a big event. I would shake my head and go shoot basketball in those days.

To the right of Wayne is a guy named Wally Rendel. Wally still preaches to this day in a church that is advancing. He has encouraged me greatly about how to help college aged young adults in to ministry, and he's doing it. His wife, Barbara, had me play in the band on some Easter services when I was in high school. Wally and Barbara are like second parents to me.

The guy in the very middle is Jim Burgen. Jim was Wally's youth pastor in those days. I think Jim was the first guy to put me in a band for a youth group thing. As I recall they all knew what they were doing, and I just kept the key boards turned down. (except for that helicopter sound affect on that one tune from my DX-7). Jim is now a preacher at a little church in Boulder, CO.

I could go on...

It's the Monday after Easter. I hope your Sunday was a great one. I was reading last night in my social media feeds, and in texts, about how many were at this church and that church, and how many baptisms happened all over the country.  If you're a church leader I bet your social media feed was similar.

Big days tend to make me reminisce about all the people that asked, loved, encouraged, and kicked me over the last 25 years. Nobody gets to where they are alone. If you're like me it actually takes more than just a village to help you along the way. There's probably not a picture large enough to include all of these folks who've meant so much to me over the years from KY, Vegas, Michigan, Chicago, Omaha and now Denver. 

I got a couple of texts "thinking of you" and those are the best. So I'm texting a few today as well. Hopefully you are in the yard working, or riding a bike, or playing catch with the kids, but you are already thinking what are we doing Sunday? Take a moment and make the list, and shoot some thank you texts out before you take off in to next week.

If you're like me the list is a long one...Kristin, Bart, Greg, Schneids, Andy, Saul, Jim, Ronnie, Gene, Bob, Amy, Curtis, Bill, Rick, Ben, Jim, Laban, Matt, Aaron, Jordan, Jeff, Bruce, Katie, Tim, Paul, Sean, Mark, Nate, Scott, Andy, Don, Megan, Lance, Nancy, Steve, Sammy, Lindsay, and just a few moments ago a guy named Jim made this list.

If I sat here longer I would think of more I'm sure. Like you, I'm off to next weekend planning.

Happy day after Easter.


Core Competencies

Core Competencies

About five years ago I did a series of roundtable lunches with senior leaders of churches. I asked them two questions:

What are you looking for in your next hire?
Why did you, or your executive pastor, have to fire someone on your staff?

After speaking with about 80 leaders across denominations, and from churches of all sizes we landed at about 150 general answers. I took this spreadsheet and had it printed at Fed Ex Kinkos (it was quite large) and hung one copy on a co-worker’s wall, and hung one copy on my office wall.

The goal was to boil down this list in to a common set of core competencies or soft-skills. I wanted to boil this off to five. I think we got it down to twenty something.

There are probably a thousand competencies to doing ministry this is not meant to be exhaustive (so please no hate mail about Biblical training and discipleship) keep in mind that this list assumes a lot.

For one, it assumes theological education is handled elsewhere for those that want to preach and teach. It also assumes that most of the core issues of personal spiritual growth are handled as well.

We were assuming a lot, but we landed on this list for a few reasons:

First, this is what church leaders told us. After all, what is needed in the field is a question that the Church owns. Not colleges or seminaries. This is theirs to answer.

Secondly, the landfills are full of discipleship materials. There are plenty of people on that topic.

At the end of the day, the Kingdom is spending billions on education and discipleship, and I’ve always tried to get at the core issue of why aren’t there enough leaders, and why are we still under-preparing the ones we do have?

Third, we were seeking to answer the question: Why do people get fired? And what ends ministry careers early at churches? In other words, where are the gaps in the skill preparation of how we are preparing people for ministry.

The gap does not appear to be in theological education.  We're good there. Our seminaries are full, and there's a ton of content on line.

The gap does not appear to be in discipleship. You may argue that there aren't many disciples and that's fine, but I'll point you to this week's list of books and resources, and last year's landfills. 

So where is the gap?

My co-worker Andy Dykhouse boiled this list down (below), and we’ve been tweaking/running on this list for four years. They are broken into thirds and build upon one another. It's a big list, and this is why we need two years of residency just to address the topics and coach through them.

This is the list that eventually led us to launch 

I’m curious what do you see that we are missing? Email me let’s talk about it.


Self Care


Time Management


Taking Initiative

Fail Forward



Work Ethic


Decision Making

Managing Details

Courageous Influence

Personal Finances

Gospel Presentation


Passion for Personal Growth

Bible Application

Lead a Meeting


Think Strategically

Developer of Others

Team leadership

Conflict Management




Culturally Proficient

Four Dangerous Paths for Those Entering Ministry

Four Dangerous Paths for Those Entering Ministry

Four Dangerous Paths

 A Christian College senior sat down in my office in February of his last year of undergrad studies in ministry, and was perplexed. Like most of the good ones, he’d spent the better part of the last two years on a developmental path of part-time ministry under the guidance of a great youth pastor.

“I don’t know which of these opportunities I should pursue,” he said.  He’d had several different churches approach him about his post-grad plans. He had narrowed down to the final two. I knew of both churches. Church A had the right zip code, and the right salary for a college grad who was married with a child at home already. Church B was less attractive on the surface with a not so great address, and substantially less of a salary package.

I knew Church A well and I knew that the last five staff people who had finished their time there left on bad terms, damaged, and dropping out of ministry. My knowledge of Church B was that most staff members were put on a developmental path, and the ones who left had gone on to plant churches supported by the home church. 

This is a very real snap shot of what some 20 to 25 year olds face when making a first ministry decision. I get asked daily “where are all of the talented 30 year olds who’ve been in ministry for seven years and built something?” Many (most) chose the wrong path and they didn’t make it to the check point. 

I’ve seen four reoccurring paths that I’d call “dangerous:”

1. THE ROCKY PATH.  This one I’ve already described above as Church A. We’re not sure what’s wrong, but there sure are a lot of dead bodies of former staff people littered on that road. It leads nowhere, and is full of quick sand, and toxic waste dumps. Most do not survive. Meet someone who began on this path, and they barely like Jesus three years later, let alone the church.

2. THE WORLD IS FLAT PATH. Best practices from conferences and leadership resources are suspect at best. This church is not necessarily “old” but can be. If you meet a leader who joined this team and stayed a decade they can be a pretty angry individual. They’ve learned how to blame everyone around them for where they find themselves. They know what’s wrong with that big church across town. It hasn’t “really happened” for them yet, and they are stuck. On the surface, they appear to be “faithfully sticking it out,” but internally it’s a mess. In moments of tearful-honesty they will admit they wish they could do something else with their life. I typically am thinking and you want me to send you a youth pastor candidate?

I’ve heard one or two retired pastors tell of how they started in ministry. They started on this path.  I drove four hours each way and preached for 19 people every Sunday and they could only pay me in fried chicken and sweetened tea. For every one of these stories I’ve heard dozens/hundreds who never made it beyond the World is Flat Path. They did two or three years and switched professions.

3. THE RED-BULL-GO-PRO-PATH. We’ve all seen the exciting video of the skier going straight down a cliff with no path at all. Are they skiing or just falling? We can’t tell.

This church staff is making the news because of their amazing growth and sexy innovations. They are young, they are fun, they are cool, and if their new hire can make it down that mountain with no helmet they will have a great story to tell. A new green hire into this path MUST go in with an outside coach and someone to help them stay sane. These young bucks are the ones who get asked back to speak at Seminary because of their marque employer. But beware this path is marked with stories of divorce, cancer, and burnout.

They typically tell me that there is amazing stuff going on around them, but when they get honest they have burned it at both ends for so long they can barely remember their name, let alone why they got in to ministry in the first place.  We must come alongside these high potential leaders before they kill themselves. These are the ones who need a developmental path more than anyone. Three years of development, then go jump off that mountain with a Go-Pro and they might survive it!

4. THE "NO GUIDE" PATH. This is very similar to number 3, but it looks safer from the outset. Many have gone down this path, there’s a map, and there are even clear markers. It doesn’t appear to be dangerous, but the missteps early on are many. Those on this path make the same mistakes that others have made over and over. That’s why this path can also be called the Path of the Stupid Tax. Those on this path are often wondering if they are going the right way.

Those that were LUCKY ENOUGH to live this path and continue on think it’s fine, and actually almost a good thing, that those younger on their team are paying the stupid tax. Many are casualties of this path. With no plan, and no developmental help, these young leaders try, fail, and are eventually kicked off the path. We all know that pain is a great teacher, but let’s face it, there’s plenty of opportunity for pain on down the road.

We must help these young leaders avoid the dumb mistakes we made. We were lucky. Let’s admit that.

I’ve heard many who I’d call ministry veterans recount a conversation with a young leader trying to make a vocational ministry decision. They pray with them, they do a great job listening to them, and then they say well intentioned things that are not helpful like “Well give it all to Jesus and I’m sure you’ll make the best decision.”

 We need to guide, coach, beg, even push the youngest and most talented to the best developmental path before them. It could be less money (or no money), or a less desirable place to live, but it might keep them moving forward longer than what the average is currently.

Full circle back to my story above…I told this college senior to go find where the last four or five staff people were and come back and report to me. Sure enough, he’d looked far enough under the hood to realize that something was not quite right. I asked him, “What do you ultimately want to do some day?” He replied with, “Advance the gospel, preach, and plant churches.” I told him his choice appeared obvious. He had to go to some place with a track record of that with its young staff.  Two years later he’s still on his way to doing just that.







Part 2: If I Like the Music at Your Church That's a Problem

Part 2: If I Like the Music at Your Church That's a Problem

I must say I was shocked last week at the amount of hits, conversations, and sharing part one of this post caused. I’m a minor-league blogger at best, but when anything goes “20x normal,” that’s a lot. While I don’t mean to stir up a circular conversation about worship style, age, and whom Sunday morning is really for, I do want to follow up with another observation because it just drives me even more to stay after a passion point for me.

I began ministry in ’92 and was fortunate to be around some great guys in ministry whom I have written about before. Even though I didn’t know it, and we didn’t use the terminology, I spent my first few years in what I’d call “Church Leadership Residency.”  I had a ton of feedback, a safe place to fail, and strong people around me that allowed pain in my life but wouldn’t let me quit.

I think about all of innovating that I was a part of in those days. There was a plethora of quantum leaping, in terms of ministry style, vision, and values that I was sitting at the table helping to shape. I was too young to be there…but I was. The people I was working for and being mentored by were anciently old. Most were 35 to 45. Ha! Many remain friends today.

The angst around "age" in the church is still real, and we must keep talking about it. I get it, clichés like “age is an attitude,” have some truth. There are plenty of influencers who are my age and much older and always will be. I mean, I guess I would hire Bono to be a worship leader.

But, it’s amazing when I think back to the types of decisions I was leading out on at a volatile church of 600, and then subsequently, at a church of 2,000. People a decade ahead of me surely were wincing, but then again, when I look back, they weren’t that old either.

It’s as if today we are so afraid that a twenty-something is going to do exactly what we did in the 90s!

Today, those of us who have opportunity to wield influence to help churches get younger at the leadership table must continue stepping up on this issue. This is another reason why I’m so passionate about and helping churches begin residency. I repeatedly meet students who spend a couple of years in residency and then wind up being hired at those churches. I see this at some of the largest churches in America and some advancing smaller ones, as well.

Many students haven’t finished their undergraduate degrees yet are sitting at leadership tables because the 35-year-olds have been working a developmental path with them, and finally after two years, they trust them enough to have them lean in and lead out, much like I did!

Last week I was flying out of Denver and had some time to kill. The shoeshine stand had no line and my shoes were in desperate need, so I hopped up on the seat. Darwin, a fun, older gentleman began his leather polishing artistry and then asked the showstopper question, “So, what is taking you to Pittsburgh?” And I had to explain that I was flying across the country to help a church find a worship leader because they’d been looking for a long time and couldn’t find the next staff member.

Like most, he was shocked. “I’m a Baptist from Oklahoma City,” said Darwin. “You know, if you’re born in OK, your card is punched Baptist or Pentecostal, and I know I ain’t that, but I had no idea it was hard to find a pastor these days.” He went on and on asking all the questions about Slingshot and what we do to serve churches.

“Seems to me we’ve gotta get more people going in to ministry. That’s a shame,” he said.

I told him I couldn’t agree more, but we will have to invite the 8th grader like I was invited.  We are going to have to intentionally coach the twenty-somethings like never before. We are going to have to allow them to influence it, just like someone allowed me to do the same.

I may not like where they take it, and I may not like the music. That’s ok, too.